Blogtable: Giving it all up for Love

Each week, we’ll ask our stable of scribes across the globe to weigh in on the most important NBA topics of the day — and then give you a chance to step on the scale, too, in the comments below.


BLOGTABLE: The price of Love | New most intriguing team | Sleeper rookie



VIDEO: What’s the going price for Kevin Love these days? The GameTime guys have ideas.

> You’re David Griffin, GM of the Cavs. What’s the absolute most that you’re willing to give up to get Kevin Love? Anthony Bennett and Andrew Wiggins? Why? Now, or wait?

Steve Aschburner, NBA.com: To get Kevin Love to Cleveland, I would give up Andrew Wiggins, Anthony Bennett, Dion Waiters and a future pick or two. Too much? Not for one or more championships, which I think would be the Cavs’ harvest from the deal. Two reasons to include Bennett: First, Love would play his position essentially, rendering him less important. And second, the Cavs didn’t “have” him last year anyway, given his disappointing rookie season, so it’s not a tangible loss. One huge reason to give up Wiggins: The trade doesn’t happen without him and Love heads to the Bay Area or Chicago soon or to Los Angeles later. Waiters is a high-maintenance guy neither team really covets and LeBron James-Kyrie Irving-Love should render lousy most future Cavs draft picks. As for timing, sooner is better. You’d hate to wait and then realize in May or June, rats, if only this group had had more time together …

Jeff Caplan, NBA.com: I’ll answer the last part first. Wait. There’s no reason to trade for Kevin Love today when you haven’t seen what Andrew Wiggins can do or be alongside LeBron James. I understand the tug to go get Love now, but unless the Cavs feel the Warriors are about to pull the trigger, Love isn’t going anywhere and will be available throughout the season right up to the deadline. What if Wiggins just blows everybody away? What if he proves to be a very good defender from the jump? If you wait, the Wolves might get desperate, not wanting to lose love for nothing. So eventually it might, or might not, take Wiggins to pry Love. Three months into the season, the Cavs should have a good read on Wiggins, and if LeBron still wants Love, then, yes, I trade the No. 1 picks in 2013 and 2014.

Sekou Smith, NBA.comIf I’m David Griffin, I’m willing to give up Wiggins, Bennett and anyone else not named Kyrie if it makes LeBron James happy. I do it now (before Chicago undercuts me) and I do it without hesitation or regret, since my time on this job could be limited if championships aren’t chased immediately. This is a win now league and, on paper, that’s the logical stance to take if I’m Griffin. He’s not handing off sure thing No. 1 picks in this deal (courtesy of his predecessor, Chris Grant). There is no guarantee that Wiggins becomes the All-Star caliber player Love is right now by his sixth season in the league. And there’s no guarantee that Bennett becomes a bona fide starter six seasons in. But the fact is, whatever I do, I’m gambling on guys who have the same amount of playoff experience in the league. Love, as stellar a player as he’s been in a dreadful situation year after year in Minnesota, has just as much hype to live up to if he joins the Cavaliers as Wiggins ever would. And I’m not completely convinced that Love is the missing piece in Cleveland.

John Schuhmann, NBA.com: I’m not crazy about the idea of trading so much for Love. LeBron James and Love complement each other offensively, and Love is one of the league’s best players on that end of the floor. But Wiggins has the potential to be one of the league’s best two-way players, and defense is more important than offense. James is only 29 years old, so the Cavs’ window will be open for at least five more years. Love doesn’t guarantee them anything in the next year or two, and their ceiling could be higher three years from now with Wiggins & Co. than with Love. I doubt this happens, but I’d wait it out, see what Wiggins can do for three months, see how much Bennett benefits from playing with the best player in the world, and put pressure on Minnesota to make a decision closer to the trade deadline or risk losing Love to free agency next summer. If they send him somewhere else, there will be another All-Star you can trade the young guys for within the next year or two.

Lang Whitaker, NBA.com’s All Ball blog: What does Minnesota want for Kevin Love? Whatever it is, outside of Kyrie Irving and/or LeBron James, I’m ready to move them for Kevin Love. Hey, I understand that Wiggins could turn into a primo NBA player who could be a perfect third pillar in the James/Irving alliance. But how long are you willing to wait for that to happen? LeBron did a nice job lowering expectations in his Sports Illustrated piece, even noting that they shouldn’t be expected to win right away. Which is great, but it ignores the fact that after 11 seasons in the NBA, the clock is ticking on LeBron’s prime. And if you can go get a guy who is a two-time All-Star and all-world rebounder RIGHT NOW, I don’t think you pass on that opportunity.

53 Comments

  1. Dude says:

    wiggins is vastly overrated, he scored 6 points in a NCAA tourney game. At least Carmelo led SU to a NCAA title in 2003 over Kansas. Trade him, Bennett and a first rounder for Love

  2. GA says:

    You know Love wants to get back to “IN AND OUT” BURGER. LOVE LA

  3. Travis says:

    1st and foremost Lebron can opt out after 1 year. If Cleveland doesent pull the trigger on the deal to land K-love he will end up in Chicago. Lebron and Kyrie are not enough to get by a Chicago team with Rose, love, Gasol and Noah.
    That’s puts a lot of pressure on Wiggins to make sure Cleveland makes it to the finals this year. I seriously doubt Wiggins will average 26 and 12 his rookie year. Probably won’t ever.
    If lebron signed a 5 year deal keep Wiggins without thinking but a 2 year deal with an option to leave after this year is to risky if you ask me.

  4. Karlo Garcia says:

    If I’m David Griffin are u planning to win now or rebuild. If your planning to win now than make a trade for Kevin Love. If your rebuilding than stick with Anthony Bennet & Andrew Wiggins. It’s eventually one or the other.

    • Chill Will says:

      First of all there is no guarantee that you will win a championship next year if you trade for kevin love. BE A MAN AND STOP KISSING Labrons BUTT THIS IS NOT A GOOD LOOK.. In his letter Labron said that north east ohio is where people work hard and he was ready to do this, if he’s not willing to work hard with Wiggins, and traid him for love then he will be contradicting himself. who is kevin love going to check. the big men on the west cost will eat him up Iboka, Aldridge, Perkins, Tim Dunkin I can go on. Offence sells tickets Defense wins Championships. That is the motto for team sports. just ask the Seattle Seahawks when they blew out Denver. just ask san Antonio when they what they did to Miami this past championship. San Antonio didn’t have to give up there whole team for one guy they built that team and now they are the most winning franchise in sport over the last 15 years. are we going to do what’s best for Labron James or are we going to do what’s best for are franchise. love wants to play with Labron he said he will sign long term with the cavs no other team will give up there stars for him because he wont commit long term. If you read between the lines of his comments he’s telling us you don’t have to give up Wiggins because I’m coming to Cleveland anyway.

  5. Curtis says:

    Cleveland does not need Love! Stay young and run!

  6. Gerry says:

    Absolutely agree with the “wait and see” version of all of this. The Spurs have someone like Wiggins (Leonard), but no one like Love. And what if Wiggins lives up to half his potential, and becomes far more than Leonard? Before the draft, WIggins was declared as the next big superstar, almost Lebronish/Durantish or just the next level down. Now Griffin is talking about he and Bennett, possibly Waiters, and a number one draft choice??? we’re kidding, right? Would anyone put Love at the level of Lebron, or Durant? If Lebron even allows this (instead of pushing for it) , his legacy is trashed. Lebron should be looking out for Cleveland long term, not next year,

  7. Antawn says:

    K.Love brings so much to the table for Cleveland, while Wiggins may be a future star, we’re not quite sure yet when that day arrives, and if it arrives, so I say get K.Love and be a close-to-a-championship-team

  8. RJ says:

    I agree with Schuhmann and Caplan. There’s no rush. see how Wiggina comes along until the deadline, first. Besides, Love has an injury history…

  9. calvin says:

    give them Lebron and Wiggins

  10. Joe says:

    The Love haters have never watched him night in, night out. He has been stuck on a terrible team with bad, and I mean bad coaching. If you look at player ratings, Love is on the top every year. He plays very hard, and you are right is not a great defender. But you people don’t understand…. Wiggins has done nothing in the NBA, to think that winning now with James, Irving and Love is worse than waiting and hopeing that the kids reach their potential is crazy.

    The top three of Love, LeBron and Kyrie is sick, like throw up every night sick. There is no better player in the league that would fit better with LeBron. Love has a sick offensive game for a big man and a top 3 rebounder every year. If you can’t see the Championship potential of these three playing together, than I feel bad for you!

    • Joe says:

      I should have added……. Last year with just adding Love to the Cav’s, make them a playoff team. Now add LeBron = Titletown

      This would be a monumental mistake to not pull the trigger for Love

  11. Rex says:

    I hope they get kevin love along side the king and erving that will be a beautiful team. oh yea!!!

  12. PLEHSDEENJBL says:

    contrary to what the others think, the cave don’t have time. they can’t wait for 3 months or something because by then kevin love will be gone to another team. i’m not saying this is a sure thing, but with teams like the bulls and the warriors, i don’t know if they’ll be able to trade for him after three months. plus, i think it could set lebron’s decision right because i believe he would have scored another championship if he could have stayed with the heat. but things happen for a reason, although i wish he could really get a championship in his hometown

  13. Cameron says:

    I think the thing people are forgetting, aside from the on-the-court aspects of this trade, are the cap issues. At the moment, the Cavs have 2 max players in Kyrie and LeBron, and at least 2 potential starts (Wiggins and Bennett) on Rookie deals (i.e. cheap). Adding Love puts so much restraint on the cap, and the Cavs still don’t have a rim protector/ a quality center who can stay on the floor (Anderson Varejao is a great player with a lot of energy but gets hurt way too often). LeBron played his best wing defense in Miami when going for tips and steals, but to be able to do that successfully, he needs a quality interior defender who can cover him. A Tyson Chandler type player is what they need – doesn’t draw touches offensively, but provides solid to excellent defense in the paint. A lot of players could fill the role of rim-protector, but the Cavs need someone relatively cheap, and have little requirement for offensive talent at this position. A Robin Lopez, Chris Anderson (but younger), or a John Henson (Bucks) type players: someone with height who can defend the rim. Thoughts?

    • for the team says:

      yes wiggins and Bennet would be cheap for the next 3-4 years. they are showing promise now but would they reach that potential? the way i see it the only way the Cavs make this happen is in a 3 team deal and i think the prefect team for that is Detroit. Wolves is big men heavy Pistons is guard heavy and cavs have 2 First round picks that could grow with the two other teams to become future contenders in wiggins to Minna. and Bennet to Pistons And Cavs and bargain for some pieces which would give them a more balanced bench already having commits from Miller and james jones and possibly Ray allen. Pistons resign Monroe and get finding a place for Josh smith on the floor issue to rest and Love goes to Clevland being the main reason we are debating i just think this would benefit all teams unless GMs dont wanna help other teams get better and while making their team better and more stable

  14. defdun says:

    Love is a nightmare match-up for every opposing team. Defensively he not good staying in front of his man, but with a dozen rebounds you can’t call him a defensive liability. Wiggins, Waiters and Benett seem a realistic compensation for K-Love and K-Mart and will propel theCavs into a contender… I’d like to see that happen as then the pressure is on in CLE!

  15. Chicago89 says:

    Give Love To Chicago They Need Him To Help D Rose, Gasol & Noah I Want To Chicago Headed To The Finals.

    • Chitownwind says:

      I Hope NOT
      Right now Chicago’s best players are :
      Rose, Gasol, Noah, Gibson, Butler, McDermott, Mirotic, Hinrich, Brooks, Dunleavy, Snell(could move to 8 spot if he can play like he did in summer league), Bairstow, in that order.

      Starters: Rose, Butler, McDermott, Gasol, Noah
      Bench: Hinrich, Snell, Dunleavy, Mirotic, Gibson

      After the Love Trade:
      Starters: Rose, Hinrich, Butler, Gasol, Love
      Bench: Brooks, Snell, Dunleavy, Bairstow, Noah

      How are they a better team losing there 4th, 6th, 7th best players, they become weaker in both rotations. Not to mention going from the best defensive team in league to an average defensive team.

      • Ben Quick says:

        I agree. I don’t think the bulls should make any deal that involves Mirotic or Doug McDermott and certainly not both as the latest rumors seem to imply. Let Cleveland gut their team instead. Love, Irving, and LBJ make one hell of a big three. But I’ll still take my chances with pau, nico, d rose, noah, mcd, jimmy, taj, and an increasingly solid supporting cast.

  16. Justin Mullen says:

    Although Kevin Love is top tier offensive talent, he is not worth giving up Wiggins or Bennett. Potentially, or even at best, Wiggins will be a top 5 player in the league and one of the best two way players in the game. At worst, with his Athletic abilities he will be a top tier defender both on the perimeter and as a help defender and not to mention is transition allah (Lebron James). Anthony Bennett in my opinion has sort of the same offensive ability as Love just not as proven and can benefit playing along side James. He shoots well from the outside, puts the ball on the floor pretty decent and rebounds well enough for an under sized four. Confidence will be the only obstacle for Bennett to reaching his full potential, which is at all-star level. Keeping Wiggins and Bennett will fair well for the Cavs now and for the future in a league where attacking from multiple angles is becoming the norm.

  17. CLIFF says:

    Dont trade wiggins.. Huuuge potential.. Big three – James, Wiggins and Erving… They” be unstopable

  18. ko0kiE says:

    ouw… I’m not sold on kevin love lifting the cavs to another level. he’s a very gifted offensive player and rebounder but he is not a very good overall defender and cannot protect the rim.. something the cavs obviously are missing.
    wiggins can already make an impact on the defensive end and just imagine him and lebron on the fast break.. Oo

    if the warriors or bulls don’t pull the trigger he still can come via free agency next year and the cavs don’t have to give up that much

  19. miguelamor22 says:

    NEWSFLASH all you morons posting your Eastern Conference playoff list. The #1 team from each division is guaranteed a top 4 spot! AKA, if you don’t have The Raptors in your top 4, then you are an idiot.

  20. WesleyTomas says:

    Kevin love is a one for one . Kevin love has no real resume of accomplishment at the NBA level. 6 years 1 time all star no playoff appearances. Has a divas attitude . Then his skill set is something the Cavs have already or they can develop. I don’t understand it . Also Love is not a great defensive player. Lebron knows from experience that you not only need offense but defense as well . So now instead of one defensive liability you have two. I personally think this is just something to keep people interested in the NBA to keep the clicks going . Basketball wise it doesn’t make sense to me . It creates more problems on the court and on the cap. Never seen so much interest for a player who has shown nothing but pretty stat lines his whole career but hey people think Lance Stephenson is an all star level player haha go figure.

    • HotFreshMemes says:

      3x all star, 2x all nba 2nd team, always around the top 2 or 3 in rebounding are not significant enough? And with Pek as your 2nd best player, no wonder he didn’t make the play offs in the West

    • DRamirez says:

      Eesley, not trying to be rude but do you watch basketball? More so, have you ever seen K. Love play? Hes a Great Player with stats to back it up. Hes only 25 and his one knock is that he cant play D!! Hes going to be an all star the next 10 years barring injury and if you are Cleveland you figure something out before some other team. Hes worth it especially playing with Lebron James. LBJ makes everyone better, its proven. They would make a great team plus you add a Phenomenal young PG in Kyrie and you have a solid “big 3.” I PRAY IT HAPPENS!!!!

  21. RAMON says:

    People must be crazy, if they think that LOVE is just another player, with LEBRON JAMES by his side, i think he could become a superstar, cause he has the qualities too become one and the work ethic. he reminds me of GASOL, when he was in the GRIZZLIES they didn’t accomplish nothing, but once he got traded to the LAKERS he made them into a title contender with KOBE.

  22. RAMON says:

    I think is a risk both ways whether or not they trade for him, but if i was the manager for the CAVALIERS i would take the risk of adding an established player in the league, instead of waiting on another one, that nobody knows for sure how good he’s going to be, i wouldn’t want tom wait for too long to be a title contending, i would try too make the team a title contender asap, and with LOVE they have a better chance too become an elite team in the east.

  23. CAVSNOW says:

    make it happen (love for wiggins & bennett) but excluding dion waiters in the mix future drafts will be okay. Do it while Lebron is at his Prime.

  24. Hornets to the east finals says:

    Bulls
    Cavs
    Heat
    Hornets
    Pacers
    Wiz
    Pistons
    Hawks

    • miguelamor22 says:

      Toronto is pretty much guaranteed the #4 spot at least my man. Your list is moot.

      • Hornets to the east finals says:

        Yeah didn’t mean to put pistons meant raps. But they won’t get top 4

  25. Timothy Gill says:

    Mistakes by the lake .

  26. randomguy says:

    Any trade of Wiggins for Love is a bad deal for the Cavs. That is not only short-sighted, but also extremely risky. Wiggins is most likely going to develop into a star, which would be insurance if Lebron decides once again to leave. Love, meanwhile, may be a current star, but is by no means going to slot into the 3rd guy role. In that aspect, Bosh was actually a much better guy to play 3rd fiddle, because he not only sacrificed his entire game (he used to play in the low post, remember?) but was also a good defender (unlike Love who is an average one at best). If they trade for Love and find that there are chemistry issues, he can bolt instantly, leaving the Cavs high and dry. The Heat came together in free agency with the intent of sacrificing individual numbers for a championship. Love has never expressed any such sentiment, and he would not at all be blamable if he immediately left at the end of the year since it wasn’t his choice Cleveland traded for him.

    Maybe he does fit in, maybe he does accept a third man role and actually helps Cleveland to a championship. Or maybe he doesn’t and they crash and burn as much as the Lakers did twice (remember Shaq+Malone+Kobe+Payton, or Kobe+Nash+Howard+Gasol?). There is no reason to literally trade away depth and talent for a risk like that, especially when you aren’t trying to squeeze out a championship out of an old body like the Lakers were. The Cavs have youth, they need to be looking for the future, not now. Just because Lebron came back (by his own choice, mind you), should you immediately abandon everything for a risky win-now gamble.

    Lets be honest, which is more likely to upset Lebron? Trading away pieces for Love, who then leaves in free agency after one season, or asking him to be stick to his word and stick around while your young players develop. If you trade away the players Lebron was talking about being happy to play with, he has an excuse to leave if everything falls apart. If you don’t, he has no excuse and can only hurt his own legacy and desirability if he goes back on his word.

  27. Joseph Enright says:

    From Minnesota point of view I think Love would be a good move for Cleveland, he is a all-star and is young and will get better so why wait for rookies to develop which may never happen and for Minnesota Love is going to leave anyway so why not add some talented players with potential. Minnesota is small market team and needs to develop talent so they stay around a few years so I think its a good move for both teams

  28. Scisca says:

    I wouldn’t trade for Love. Instead I’d go to him and tell him how Miami was built – through free agency, not trades!! Trades gut out teams, free agency makes teams better. Ask him if he wants to play on the new Heat or the new Knicks after the Melo trade… After that just tell him – play your last season with the Wolves, tell the fans you want to make the final run with the team for the Playoffs (which Wolves obviously won’t make) and then leave for Cleveland. I mean, would he rather play in Cle with Wiggins or without Wiggins? I think the answer is quite obvious. Having Bennett as his backup makes for a very solid bench as well.
    To sum up – I’d go to Love and convince HIM to wait and come in free agency. The Cavs can wait one year in which this team grows together. You can pretty much say that this is a completely new team, as Kyrie, Wiggins, LBJ and even Bennett haven’t played with each other. They need a year either way to invent a system and then Love could fit into a working machine.

  29. Badman says:

    INVOLVE A 3RD TEAM….NAMED TORONTO

    CLE GETS LOVE, MARTIN
    TOR GETS WIGGINS + BARREA
    MIN GETS ROSS, VASQUEZ, WAITERS, BENNETT AND PICKS FROM TOR AND CLE

    • sonic love says:

      3 team trade yes but make it Boston;
      cavaliers: k love
      Timberwolves; Rondo, Thompson, Bennett and Olynyk
      Boston; Rubio, Dieng, Budinger and Waiters

  30. Walter Guerra says:

    Draft Day.. A WIGGINS!

  31. Lynette Stone says:

    I am so sick of everyone banging on the Cavs about Kevin Love. Personally, I am hoping they don’t make that move and just wait. I don’t want to trade half our team for one player who in my opinion doesn’t give us anything more than what we already have.

    I must be the only person on earth that is not overly impressed with Kevin Love. I think he is just the best player on a bad team — not a great player and his numbers are deceiving because of where he is. He is very weak defensively, so how does that help us? I would rather see us trade Wiggins (if we must) for something that we need — like a center/rim protector.

    I don’t want the Cavs to put themselves in the same position that Miami found themselves in this year — no cap space and a need to improve. Granted Wiggins is an unknown, but I want to see what he has before we make this trade. Cleveland’s problem has always been impatience — because we want a championship so badly, we have made some really stupid moves (eg. Mike Brown pt. 2) — for a change, we should be patient and really figure out what we need. They may find out what a lot of us in Cleveland already know, we don’t need Kevin Love.

  32. Billy says:

    Just a thought…..San Antonio’s big 3 STAYED with their team. got another championship, and in the process are helping to develop their team’s future and new stars.
    THAT is character, THAT is what team and loyalty is all about. LeBron keeps trying to buy and shop for titles. Kevin Love might help him with that, but letting the future of your team ( Wiggins) go to please LeBron….
    If Le Bron had character he would play with Wiggins and show Cleveland he truly cares for the city and the organization.

  33. Bill says:

    Jesus, am I the only one who doesn’t understand why you’d give up 2 number one picks as well as future draft picks for a guy who has exactly as much playoff experience as Wiggins (zero), and barely plays defense? So he can shoot. So can Ray Allen and Mike Miller. How does such an addition guarantee championships? Plus he’ll be a free agent next year!! Why jump the gun?

    So yes, I say WAIT.

  34. Erlo says:

    All I know is: I CANNOT WAIT FOR THE SEASON TO START! :)

  35. James Soften says:

    I would trade Love for Irving.

    NBA is trying to make Irving a superstar when he is not and will never be. His stats are awful for an elite PG.
    He is just a ballhog with sick handling.

  36. ...MN says:

    A first overall pick for a guy who has one year left on his contract and is making near max salary anyway. You are effectively trading for a one year benefit of 4.5 million in cap space. This is a whole lot more than I can remember any other team getting for a near free agent and many of those players were a lot better than Kevin Love. Not to obscure those earlier points but I’m also not even sure Love is one of the 15 best players in the league but regardless if he is or not Chicago won’t give up near this and neither will Golden State.

    If Cavs actually offered Wiggins I can’t believe they did not take that. Rookies have lots of value because they provide cap savings – if Love really wants to play with Cavs they can sign him at market rates (ie. pretty much what they would be paying anyway) in one year, Whole discussion is madness unless the league is somehow pressuring Cavs to let Wiggins go.

  37. Josh says:

    Love is a great fit for so many teams! , draws big guys out with his perimeter shooting and an outstanding rebounder, more specifically in the case of Chicago, it would be tricky, id be happy to trade taj gibson and some draft picks, but gibson and jimmy butler, an outstanding defender and a still ever growing offensive weapon….. thats a tough one especially with Noah and Gasol in the post……………on another thought that “big 3″ would cause so much havoc, Gasol isnt a bad shooter, Noah is a pain in everyones arse and Love’s spacing would be a true menace, thats not even taking into equation where Rose will be and how good Mcdermott progresses in the next season.

    The future is looking bright for Chicago with or without Love

  38. Killerdogg says:

    I say trade for Love now and play for championships. Wiggins has a huge upside but is unproven. Say he does turn into a star in Minnesota, they aren’t winning anything anytime soon with the all the great teams in the Western Conference and Lebron still playing in the Eastern Conference. In 4 yrs when he is a free agent he will be over playing in Minnesota not winning and bring him back as a more polished player 2 play along side Lebron and continue playing for championships. He’s loving Cleveland now so he would probably jump at coming back but this time with a max contract.

  39. blazetheendlessblaze says:

    Stick with the young crew. Lebron needs that energy around him as much as they need him. They’ll play their best for him, and he’ll feed off it. That team can RUN…

  40. celtics1 says:

    Let love go to Chicago, it makes the east more interesting.

    East Playoff picture
    Miami
    Indiana
    Cleveland
    Chicago
    Washington—- they are looking really strong this year
    Brooklyn
    Atlanta
    Toronto

    • JoshKing says:

      The fact that celtic put the Miami #1 in his playoff pictures lets us know that he’s still reminiscing of when Lebron was there. Pipe Dreasm…..NEWS FLASH!!!! LBJ is with the Cavs now. Knock the Heat down 2-3 spots below teams like Bulls, Pacers & Washington. Cavs may be in a fight with the Heat for the 4th spot.

    • OKC says:

      indy is a 6-8 seed without lance stephenson

      • Will B. says:

        Indiana should’ve been at the least going head to head with San Antonio and if not that much they should’ve been walking away with the title last year. Indy is done and so is OKC who should’ve knocked off San Antonio.